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Forums -> Ministry

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mayflower




Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:14 am  Reply with quote

Gays in ministry??
What if you knew someone pursuing the ministry by education, and then they revealed to you that they were gay. What would you say to them? Is there a difference between being celibate and being gay? Is it permissible for someone to be in the ministry and openly gay? Came across this issue last night. Just thought I would get your opinions.
Thanks,
Mayflower
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hiscounsel2




Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:51 am  Reply with quote

No, would be like a murderer or an adulterer contiuing on in the pulpit, imo. No one is without sin, but we must try to be the best we can be.

Six qualifications that many modern day pastors don't meet:

Elders must be men.
Elders must be married.
Elders must have children who are old enough to be believing Christians.
Elders must have PROVEN that they can keep their children under control WITHOUT REBELLION.
Must be what "elder" implies: an older man of experience. Men under 40 years old are never called an elder.
Must have enough Bible knowledge to be able to refute false doctrine.

An elder is synomous with pastor, preacher, evangleist.
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cmdrchristof

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 676

Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:04 pm  Reply with quote

elder and pastor are different things.

Remember Timothy?

How about Paul?


Think that God doesn't use young people? look at Jeremiah


as for having a homosexual in ministry, it would depend upon whether they were living an active homosexual lifestyle.

Please people stop thinking that homosexuality is worse than any other sin in the Bible.

If they choose to live that lifestyle they are choosing to live a sinful lifestyle and that disqualifies them. Just as much as living and having sex with someone you are not married to would disqualify you.
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michaelkeith

Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 360

Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:36 am  Reply with quote

Cmdrchristof.... there is no depending upon anything, Homosexuality is an abomination unto God... it is a sin like all sins... yes it is true that you may have men and women in the ministry that are living a double life, if one should be living such lifestyles they should remove themselves quickly and get deliverence.... I will not cast the first stone like some may, but will bring forth the hand that would hold the stone , but the hand would be one with mercy and forgiveness and restoratation.... MichaelKeith PS Homosexuals have no right behind the pulpit as any other person living a sinful lifestyle.
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cmdrchristof

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 676

Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:38 am  Reply with quote

michaelkeith wrote:
Cmdrchristof.... there is no depending upon anything, Homosexuality is an abomination unto God... it is a sin like all sins... yes it is true that you may have men and women in the ministry that are living a double life, if one should be living such lifestyles they should remove themselves quickly and get deliverence.... I will not cast the first stone like some may, but will bring forth the hand that would hold the stone , but the hand would be one with mercy and forgiveness and restoratation.... MichaelKeith PS Homosexuals have no right behind the pulpit as any other person living a sinful lifestyle.


The depending upon I was talking about was whether or not they choose to sin by living that lifestyle.

What about men and women who are attracted to the same sex but do nothing about it?

I 100% agree with no one living a sinful life being allowed behind the pulpit, but I refuse to accept that just being attracted to the same sex is means for disqualification of pastorship.
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hiscounsel2




Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:27 am  Reply with quote

Cmdr, they are one and the same.
Elders," "Bishops," and "Pastors"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sometimes denominations distinguish the terms "Elder," "Bishop," and "Pastor," claiming that bishops are different from elders which, in turn, are different from pastors. But the Bible often uses different terms to refer to the same thing.

Consider the evidence from Bible texts.

Acts 20:17,28-30
V17 -- Paul is addressing the elders of the Ephesian church.

V28 -- The Holy Spirit made them bishops (ASV; "overseers" -- KJV). Their job was to shepherd (NKJV; "feed"-- KJV; "tend" -- ASV) the flock. This uses the verb form of "pastor".

V29,30 -- Their duty to act as shepherds (pastors) is further described.

Clearly, all three terms are here used to describe the same men doing the same job in the local church.

Titus 1:5-9
V5 -- Titus was told to appoint elders in every city.

V6-9 -- Qualifications immediately follow for elders. We are told they must have these qualities "for" (because) bishops must be the kind of men described in the qualifications given.

Clearly, the qualifications are being given for the one office being discussed, but the terms "elder" and "bishop" are here used interchangeably to refer to that office. Further, the work these men do is described in v9ff, and it is the same work Acts 20 said elders or bishops do, acting as shepherds (pastors) -- i.e., protect the flock from false teachers.

1 Peter 5:1-3
V1 -- Peter is addressing elders.

V2 -- Their work is to shepherd (NKJV; "tend" -- ASV; "feed" -- KJV) the flock. Again, the verb form of "pastor" or shepherd is used. They also serve as overseers (NKJV; exercise or take the "oversight" -- ASV, KJV). This is the verb form of bishop.

Clearly "elders," "pastors," and "bishops" in these passages are used interchangeably, referring to the same men in the same work. All three terms refer to an office in the local congregation, and are therefore identical in extent of jurisdiction (cf. Acts 20:17,28 to I Pet. 5:1-3; etc.). Their qualifications and work are identical.

Interestingly, the footnote on 1 Timothy 3:1 in the St. Joseph New Catholic Edition of the Bible agrees that Paul made no distinction between elders and bishops: "Bishop: represents a Greek word meaning 'overseer,' and 'presbyter' another Greek word meaning 'elder.' In St. Paul 'bishop' and 'presbyter' seem to be used convertibly, and probably priests are here included under the term 'bishops.'"

It is a mistake for denominations to distinguish the terms as if they apply to different offices.

Note that it follows that preachers (evangelists) are an entirely different work from elders/pastors. Note Eph. 4:11. Special qualifications are required of elders/pastors/bishops which are not required of preachers (1 Tim. 3:1ff; Tit. 1:5ff).

http://www.gospelway.com/topics/church/elder-bishop.php

Now, no homosexual, practicing nor non practicing can meet these standards, you know. Also, you know, they can be set free of that. "he whom the Son has set free, is free, indeed."

Every Christian has a ministry, you know, regardless of age, but being a pastor is a totally different office than just having a ministry.
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cmdrchristof

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 676

Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:47 am  Reply with quote

What would you call Paul?
Just interested because he was clearly more than just your average person in ministry.

He met none of those so called qualifications.
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hiscounsel2




Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:48 pm  Reply with quote

Paul wrote to Timothy, “If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless...” (I Timothy 3:1-2). The sacred nature of the office is emphasized by Paul when he says in I Corinthians 4:1, “Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and the stewards of the mysteries of God.” To Titus he wrote, “A bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate, holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught...” (Titus 1:7-9). In other words, the life of a minister must be exemplary in every way because of the high office which he represents, “in all things showing himself a pattern of good works.” (Titus 2:7)

The guidelines I gave in my previous post are intended for the common man. Not everyone is Paul or Timothy. Not many men are going to remain celebate, other than Catholic priests.

A homosexual person is still in bondage, has not been set free, if he still calls himself homosexual, just abstinent. Would be no different if a serial killer or pedophile were a minister and though, he did not practice those things, still had the urges and desires of a pedophile or serial killer. None of these are holy.

We are none of us without sin, and I am sorry, some things are much worse than others. Say what you will. A man who molests children is much worse than a liar or a thief or an adulterer. A minister, however, should be none of these things.
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shiku

Joined: 06 Mar 2009
Posts: 77

Wed Oct 14, 2009 6:15 pm  Reply with quote

I am not going to answer the question but I will throw in some scriptures for meditation.

1) "So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them" Genesis 1:27
Man represent male and female. Neither of the sex is exalted and neither is depreciated.
Sin brought the curse, which made the male to rule over the woman through the law. Genesis 3:16

BUT
2) " Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessings of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ in Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith". Galatians 3: 13-14

3)AND Now
" after the faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if Christ, then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise" Galatians 3: 25-29

The operative word is "sons". We are all sons of God through Christ. We are back to the garden of Eden kind of relationship.

Let us not stifle God's work and His vessels because of minute issues like gender. We are all born with gifts and the gifts of God are irrevocable. It is the Holy Spirit who distributes the gifts and He is not a respecter of persons. He has used women, children and even a donkey. He has said He will even use stones if there is no one found to use.

4) " For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "do not commit adultery, also said, "do not murder". Now if you do not commit adultery, but you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law" James 2:10-11

In other words, There is no big or small sin. It is humans who impose those qualities. Sin is sin. Anyone living in sin, homosexual, liar, thief, adulterer , fornicator etc is judged unless they have repented and allowed the Lord to mould them.
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The grace of God, the love of Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you,

Shiku
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hiscounsel2




Wed Oct 14, 2009 7:06 pm  Reply with quote

That is true, and sin IS sin. No way around it.
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livinginvirginia88

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 1

Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:42 pm  Reply with quote

Sin...
But don't we all live in sin ... we are not perfect we are not Jesus so we all live in sin even the homosexual.
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cmdrchristof

Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 676

Thu Oct 15, 2009 1:23 am  Reply with quote

hiscounsel we put a list of severity on sin, God does not.

It is this idea that some sin is worse than others that causes people to try and hide some sins while admitting others.

We do this so that we can feel ok about the sins that we do commit because "at least its not bad as..."

as for your comment about a serial killer of a paedophile being a minister, why not? If they have accepted that they are sinners and have actively sought got's forgiveness, have grown as a christian and in relationship with God, why could he not use them?

I'm not saying that it would be the best thing in the world, but in the eyes of God that person sin is covered by the blood of Christ.

As long as we continue to put levels of sin we will fail to understand the true freedom that God gives us.

I should note that I once went to a church where one of the leaders, a head of department had made some mistakes when younger and as a result was not allowed to be alone with children, I never inquired as to why this was, just accepted that he had made some mistakes in the past but had moved on.
He was a firmly committed Christian, in fact more-so than some other "leaders" I've met.
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